Hannah 0:11 Looking at feathers can tell us about a bird. They can even help us determine if a crime occurred. Erik 0:22 Thank you for tuning into Hannah and Erik Go Birding, a podcast by birders for birders. Hannah 0:25 I'm not a singer, not at all. My name is Hannah and his name is Erik Erik 0:29 and we created this podcast to share adventures, sometimes misadventures and opinions that we have on birding topics. We are definitely not experts, and anything that we discussed that might be controversial, won't you remember their own opinions, and they might be different from yours. Hannah 0:42 So it's been a pretty exciting Spring Break where we're at, Erik 0:47 it's been so busy, it's like, if you didn't know, if you didn't watch the news, and you didn't pay attention to like, 95% of people wearing masks, you would have no idea that there's still a pandemic going on with the numbers of people that are just enjoying spring break, I guess, which I don't know why there is a spring break. Since most people are virtual, they can go Hannah 1:06 everybody wants a break here and there. Erik 1:08 Well, I mean, they, we've had a lot of people down here with their kids, and they're just doing school online down here. Hannah 1:12 Yeah, that's true. Erik 1:13 I mean, I don't know why this week is any different than last week? I kind of, but it is like, Hannah 1:17 I sort of think that schools just like that scheduled in there. And so they don't want to like break away from the schedule. Because if we go back to in person class next year, Erik 1:25 well, I get like having a spring break like that. But but it's just like, the kids are already online. And a lot of them have been we've had a lot of guests down here that they just bring their kids down here and their kids are online for a handful of hours in the middle of the day, and then they just go into having a vacation for the rest of the day. Hannah 1:43 Well, now we can charge them more because it's spring break. But it's Yeah, the weather has been wild. It has we've had days of you know rain, sun, rain, sun, rain, sun. Erik 1:55 Today's another one of those. I think we got like a full inch of rain this morning. And now we're Hannah 1:59 now the birds are singing the birds is here. They're super loud. They're super loud. And we've had some great birds that we've been listening to in you know, at our house and around the hotel like Varied thrushes are calling a lot louder. We had a White-throated Sparrow the other day in our backyard Erik 2:15 First of season and first of yard. Hannah 2:16 I know. I heard it back in the distance, say old Sam Peabody, Peabody Peabody, and then it popped out and it was amazing. So Erik 2:25 that's really cool. And it's not that it's a spring or seasonal or anything but the Eurasian-collared Doves, were hanging out in the backyard. Hannah 2:32 Well, we're not happy about that. Except it is a yard bird Erik 2:35 is a yard bird. So Hannah 2:37 yeah, we can't count that. Yeah, Erik 2:38 it was it was on the ground. And then the next day, I thought there was a there was a rock that kind of looks like once and now I'm like debating did I actually see a dove there? Or was it the rock the whole time? Hannah 2:47 If and when we ever sell our house? Are we gonna add like in the the Zillow listing, like, you know, this yard numbers, this many birds? Erik 2:57 for sure. Yeah, that's gonna be that's Hannah 3:00 we need to keep an eye out because we had terns, Caspian terns fly over the hotel. And like, you have to be there when it happens. Because it happens so infrequently. So we're gonna have to be at the house to watch some fly over. So we can add that and I've also had a yellowlegs fly over the hotel to randomly Yeah, Erik 3:17 that's true. Hannah 3:18 So that counts. Erik 3:20 That counts. Hannah 3:21 yard bird Erik 3:22 Yeah, if you can see it from the yard and it's a yard bird. Hannah 3:24 Oh, no, I think of it as like, you have a forcefield around property and then it just goes up like a couple 100 feet Erik 3:31 so I agree with that. I'm we're completely off track off topic, a very big topic. But But I whenever I think of the yard for like the hotel, I think of anything, because I don't we can see the rock we can we can see Haystack Rock from the hotel, you can see all of our rooms, but I don't have it on the yard list here. Because I'm like, oh, there's a there's a hotspot over there. And you should make quickly Hannah 3:54 you can make two different ebird hotspots, like birds you can see from the hotel and birds you've seen at the hotel. Erik 4:00 Yeah. Well, I mean, because technically, the according to the bird rules, it's where you're standing, not where the bird is. So I'm standing in the yard, I can see it. So that counts on this list. But I think I just we had this whole conversation with Adrian, when did we Yeah, we had this whole conversation a couple like a year ago with Adrian when we Hannah 4:20 it's a real hot button topic. So we need to talk about it Erik 4:22 so if you want to hear this conversation again. You can you can go back and listen to that. Hannah 4:26 Did we talked about Mexico, because Erik 4:28 I think we did talk about Hannah 4:29 Okay, I won't get it. Funny Anyways, back on topic on topic. We had some things happen and one of which is we received a package in the mail the other day from Jared, who sent us a book called North on the Wing by Bruce Beehler. Which for the Erik 4:52 for the microphone was Hannah 4:53 just super nice. Thank you so much Jared for sending this I had actually just finished I don't get to read a lot of books because Cuz every time I read is when Erik reads. And then when Erik reads he has to stop and tell me what happened. Erik 5:05 Because it's I've read, I read really fascinating things that are actually just very boring. And I like to reiterate, I'm talking about them after I read them. Hannah 5:14 So anyways, I have trouble reading books when he's here because because he has to stop in tell me. So I get lost in what I'm doing. But anyways, I've just finished a different book called The Finnish way, we should hold this up to the camera. But okay, so getting this is bird related. So I like you know, I enjoy reading. And I have been trying to read there's a number of bird books that people are saying, like, Oh, this is the best book ever. And everybody read this. And I've tried to read those. And it just doesn't, it doesn't speak to me. And I just feel that I'm having to pull myself through some of these books. I'm not going to name any of them because I don't want to. Erik 5:54 They're all they're all great books. They're just your personality. Yeah, your reading personality. Hannah 5:58 Exactly. And so I've been like, there's one book that I have just been trying to drag myself through, because everybody likes it. And so I just decided, like a couple weeks ago, like why am I doing this? Erik 6:09 On Hop on Pop? Is that the one okay? But that's the one I've been having trouble with. Hannah 6:15 I was one fish, two fish. Oh, I see. But anyways, like, I don't know, I was just trying to drag myself through this. And I was like, why am I doing this to myself reading should be enjoyable. And so I tried to get away from bird books for a little bit. So I read this one called the Finnish way, because I went to Finland, and I saw it on Amazon. And it was like, this looks interesting. And it was actually really good. It's about sisu, I'm probably pronouncing it wrong, because I don't speak Finnish. But it's spelled si su I've been calling a si su. But it's about the courage and the grit in in the Finnish people, and how they persevere in the face of adversity. So I really like that. Erik 6:56 If you live in Finland, you got to persevere. You have I think 14 months a year of winter. And then you have negative two months of summer. So you've got to persevere out there. Hannah 7:07 Anyway, so I just finished that book. And like the day I finished it, this book from Jared came into our mailbox. So it was like fate, you know, so thank you, Jared, I am going to start reading this. As soon as Eric goes off to fire class, so I can have some peace and quiet to myself. So thank you. I appreciate it. So we've had some listeners listen to our show. Yeah. And they listen from specific areas. Erik 7:34 Each person listens from a specific, I guess that that would be not of your Hannah 7:37 driving. That's true. You can listen from several different areas. Erik 7:40 You could you could listen to us from different. I mean, you would download it, okay. Hannah 7:48 Yes. Anyways, so, first winners of who listened to us. For our last episode, it was a tie between Atlanta, Georgia, and Hough, Ohio. Erik 8:00 I think it's I think it's Hoff. Hannah 8:03 I like mine. And then Columbus, Ohio came in second. So thank you all for listening from those areas. Unknown Speaker 8:08 I'm pretty sure Atlanta Georgia isn't a data center. So Hannah 8:12 are you sure cuz they're like, aren't they a Delta hub? Unknown Speaker 8:14 Well, they're a Delta hub, but just because they're a Delta hub doesn't mean they're dead data center. And I Hannah 8:18 kind of feel like, if you're one thing, you're all the things you're all the things. Erik 8:23 If you're a data center, then that obviously you're the seafoam capital capital of the world. That's that's how it works. Hannah 8:32 So thank you for Listening. It hasn't even been that long of a day. Erik 8:39 And then not yet. Hannah 8:40 We did have a review come in. Eric, would you like to take that? Unknown Speaker 8:44 Yeah. It's from Lexington birder from Apple podcasts. They say this is an enjoyable podcast with two people chatting about their birding experiences. You can tell they love birding and, and the relaxed manner of the podcast makes it feel like a post trip conversation one has with other birders that are sorely missed these days. So thank you. Hannah 9:07 Thank you. Yeah, that's what we're going for. Unknown Speaker 9:09 Essentially, what we're going for with the post trip conversations or halfway through a trip conversations once you've already seen some birds, and now you're kind of relaxed and you're in the groove, Hannah 9:20 just getting along with other birders. Chatting. Unknown Speaker 9:23 Yeah, and we definitely miss going out and going birding with people. Hannah 9:27 Yeah. It was really fun during Eric's birthday trip to go look for the owl just chatting with people. Erik 9:34 There we go. And we saw people out there. There's, there was people out there in the wild. It was crazy. Hannah 9:39 So I'm really excited about this episode. Because especially doing that during Women's History Month, because it's a field that was pioneered by a woman. And now two of the three forensic pathologists in the US that we're aware of, are women. Erik 9:55 There's a lot of qualifiers to that in the US that we're aware of. Hannah 9:58 I'm only aware of three. Erik 10:00 That's true. I mean, I'm not aware of any others in any other country anyways, Hannah 10:04 that's true. But Ariel did mention that they've helped some other countries get going. Erik 10:08 That's true. Hannah 10:09 But before we get to Ariel, let's talk about the background of the field. And much of this has been gleaned from an Audubon article, which did make me cry. So just be aware if you go through and read it, because it's just yeah, bout an incredible person, and we'll post in the show notes. Our story starts October 4 1960, with Eastern Airlines Flight 375, taking off from Logan International Airport. Unknown Speaker 10:35 Now when the plane hit about 200 feet, the nose abruptly lifted, the left wing dropped and it plunged into the Boston Harbor. 62 of the 72 people aboard died in the crash and this remains to be the deadliest aviation accident in New England history. Hannah 10:50 So Roxie Laybourne was sitting at her desk an employee of the Smithsonian for over 15 years at the time, who had worked to prepare bird specimens for researchers that remains late land on her desk as part of the nine month investigation of the crash. She easily identifies them as European Starlings. And this went on in the FAA, his final report, and the FAA was very new at the time, and it only been around for about two years. Because aerial travel was still a pretty new thing. Unknown Speaker 11:22 Commercial aerial travel had just barely started. And the FAA had just been founded because they were like, Oh, well, we need to found something to deal with this to do because there had been accidents, a number of head on collisions of planes, and just near misses all sorts of things. So they're like, we need an investigating agency to deal with keeping air traffic safe. And so FAA was brand new when this all happened. Hannah 11:46 Yeah. So in the final report, that it says that the flight struck a large flock of European starlings on that takeoff. And that damaged three of the four engines, which, you know, the pilots couldn't have anticipated that really fixed it. Erik 12:02 Well, and from the results, I imagine, it's probably pretty bad and only have one out of the region's work. Hannah 12:07 So Unknown Speaker 12:08 yeah, I mean, they would keep flying if it was if they could fly on one, but I guess they can't. Hannah 12:14 And with this initial investigation, Roxie Laybourne established the field of forensic ornithology, her work would go on to solve crimes inform the way in which airports care for their property, and created this whole new field of research and information gathering about birds. Unknown Speaker 12:33 Yeah, so there's a ton of different things that airports do nowadays to help mitigate these sorts of things. And they all came basically from Roxie, Roxie, Laybourne, figuring things out, and then they end people following after her figuring these things out the way they drain water out of the fields around airport around the within the runway area, Hannah 12:54 the ways in which they mowed to try to limit insect populations. Unknown Speaker 12:58 Yeah, so it's all in a way to try to make air traffic safer. And so that has now extended away from just air traffic and gone into all ornithological forensic needs. So we we sat down, we had a nice, a nice long conversation with Hannah 13:20 so some initial so this is kind of one of those fun things about doing the podcast is that I can see something on Facebook, I saw that Ariel was going to talk for a, an Audubon that's near us. And the talk was called, like forensic ornithology and I looked at Erik and said, What is forensic ornithology? And we're lucky enough to get Ariel to join us to tell us about it. Unknown Speaker 13:45 Yes, sit back and listen, listen to what Ariel has to say about her passion and her job. Hannah 13:51 Well, Ariel, thank you so much for joining us to talk about what you do. And first, would you would you tell us about yourself? Ariel 14:00 Yes, my name is Ariel Gaffney. And I am a forensic ornithologist here at the US Fish and Wildlife forensics lab in Ashland, Oregon. And I grew up on the south side of Chicago. I did my undergrad at the University of Illinois in Champaign Urbana, and I did my masters at the University of New Mexico, studying the behavior and physiology of hummingbirds, North American hummingbirds the black chin and broad tailed Hummingbird. Hannah 14:27 So are you a birder? Ariel 14:29 I actually, I got into the science first and then into the birds. So I do like to bird but most of my friends started out being birders and getting into the science. So now I just get to tag along with them when they bird. Unknown Speaker 14:43 Well, there's nothing wrong doing science first, and then birds. You ended up in birds either ways. Now remember, it's all good. Hannah 14:51 So we asked you to join us to tell us about forensic pathology. So what even is forensic pathology Ariel 14:57 so forensic pathology is where we Use science and forensic techniques to identify bird remains. And I am particular here at the forensics lab use morphology. So, morphology is the study of shape, and I use morphology to identify bird remains. And those remains can be evidence that our whole carcasses, they can be partial carcasses, they can be loose feathers, they can be artifacts made from parts of birds, they can be bones. So I use their shape to and a collection of reference specimens to compare and identify their species. So, when Unknown Speaker 15:35 you say artifacts left behind is that like, when a bird strikes a window, like the shapes that they make on the window, is that, Ariel 15:43 no, actually it's, um, people often make things like headdresses or jewelry from from bird feathers. Some of them use bird bones in necklaces. Okay. Hannah 15:55 So what kind of tools do you use? I mean, I think of like forensics, as like police work, you know, like what I've seen on NCIS. And like, you know, fingerprinting and things Erik 16:06 like dusting for prints. Hannah 16:08 So I imagine that doesn't really work. So what kind of like tools do you have? Ariel 16:13 So it's kind of interesting, because I'm usually the tool. So we do use tools. But in this world of forensics, we have special agents and wildlife inspectors who are doing the investigating. And then they will reach out to us when they have evidence to be identified. And from there, they'll ship it in. And I can, if we've got, say we have loose feathers, right partial evidence, I can look at that microscopically, if it's a really tricky feather if it doesn't have any pattern. So I can take our mules which are the fluffy feathers at the base of the feather. And I can mount those on a slide and look at it under a microscope to look for microscopic characters. But if it has a pattern, or a shape, that makes it really unique, I can go over to our reference collection and compare it to some of our known specimens to tell you what species it belong to. Hannah 17:07 That's really, so no idea. Erik 17:09 So so it's like one step above DNA. But you can still identify things like you're looking at that that's crazy. Ariel 17:16 Another technique that's used in forensics is genetics. And we do have geneticists here who we work with a lot. So if the feather is particularly tricky, it doesn't have any distinguishable characters, morphological characters, we work very closely with them to extract the DNA. But there are a lot of others, you can Id just based on their their shape and pattern, and we can identify lots of feathers very quickly based on their morphology. Okay. Hannah 17:43 So do you use, like the feather Atlas when you're doing your work? Or is there Just no. Ariel 17:51 So the feather Atlas was actually started by Pepper Trail. He has built that over many years. And we actually just got an upgrade. And so now it's got a really awesome ID, your feather tool. Hannah 18:05 I just I think it's a really cool tool that I've used in the past. And I've like promoted it to people. It's wild to think that pepper, you know, started that and it's such a useful program. And you know, for laymen like us, but I'm sure that you guys can contribute so much information to that, that we would, you know, we know so much about birds because of the cool work that you guys do. Ariel 18:28 Yeah, so the feather Atlas is an awesome resource. And it was originally designed to help when for for citizens to look at their feathers, and it feathers since feathers are protected. And you can't keep them. It's illegal to possess them. And they're protected by the migratory bird treaty Act, which was started because of the Poon trade back in the early 20th 20th century. But now our agents use it and our wildlife inspectors use it if they're if they're investigating crimes, to quickly help them identify birds and bird feathers. And, and yeah, we're constantly updating the feather Atlas. We have a volunteer here who works many hours a week to scan feathers. And so I think we're up to like 426 birds represented on the feather Atlas, which is Erik 19:22 a little birds. It's a lot of feathers. Yes. Hannah 19:28 So in your office, so you guys are forensic ornithologists. Do you have like forensic mammalogists and icythologists like what other like, you know, family where their trades Erik 19:42 are representative in your department. Ariel 19:45 We have a few different taxonomic groups that are representative. So we do have a forensic herpetologist, which is the study of reptiles and amphibians, Barry Baker, and he also As an expert in mammals, and so he deals with our, for ivory to crocodile handbags. He identifies all of it. And right now it's just us. We've got to forensic ornithologist and bury myself and pepper and Berry. And we did previously have a forensic entomologist, and she just very recently left us. So hopefully, we'll get a new one. Hannah 20:31 So what kind of other scientists do you guys work with? Ariel 20:36 We're really collaborative here at the lab. So we work a lot with our pathologists and with our chemists. And so often, our pathologists before they perform their cropsy, their autopsy for a bird, they will call us into identify what species it is, particularly happens pretty commonly with like bald eagles and Golden Eagles, because young bald eagles can be mistaken for Golden Eagles. And being super familiar with bald and golden eagles and, and their age differences. It's a pretty simple, ID for Yeah, simple but not simple, simple for an expert, but not so simple. If your expertise is determining cause of death, which is not mine, but is of ours, we're also working on this really cool technique to potential technique to identify feathers based on their chemistry. So using a Dart, a direct analysis in real time. And so you put in theory, right, put a feather in front of this Dart, and it reads the chemical signature. And we're hoping we'll be able to distinguish one species from another based on their chemical signature, because they do that with wood. You can tell wood species based on their their chemical signature, which we have a chemist here at the lab who does that, Erik 21:56 huh? That's interesting. So So is it like on like, not not to go back to CSI or NCIS? Again, but the, the, the mass spectrometer that they put, they put whatever chemical samples in, and then it tells them Oh, well, this is math. Okay Ariel 22:13 100%. Unknown Speaker 22:14 That is fantastic. That'd be so cool. You're like, Oh, I don't know what this is. It's some random down feather from something that's impossible to tell. Let's, let's slide that in there and find out what it is. Ariel 22:24 Yeah, and because they have an enormous reference specimen collection of wood samples, they can do that with wood. We're testing out the technique with, Hannah 22:34 with feather so are you gonna have like, sorry, it's probably deep in the weeds. But are you gonna have like a volunteer or an employee? Like, just stand there all day long, just putting feathers in front of that thing to like, come up with the chemical composition? Like, I mean, how do we even know what Erik 22:48 the catalog? Hannah 22:49 Yeah, Ariel 22:50 that is actually what they did for the wood collection, they sent. One of the employees here, went around the globe, to take wood samples from museum collections across the globe, and brought slivers of wood back from known specimens. So they can stand in front of the Dart and measure samples. And now they have this gigantic reference database of what the chemical signatures of all of these wood species. So we're testing out the technique on bird feathers, we're not sure if it works. But it's, it's been a potential new avenue for us. So Hannah 23:31 is that something that like, if if it does work, and once you get all you know, 10,000 birds in the system? Like, can you just like copy and paste that file? Like to if Malaysia has this same, you know, system, like you can just send it across the world so everybody else can share with it? Wow. Yeah, that can really revolutionize everything and make your job a lot easier. Ariel 23:56 Yes, in theory, but they're, they're definitely doing that for smaller feathers. Because right now aspects of small little areas to do it. And, personally, I think we can all use morphology. It's, it's what you guys use when you you look at the feather Atlas and figure out what species you've got in front of you. It's what we all do when we go birding, to determine what species is in front of us morphology is just so useful and so quick to ID species. But I don't think it'll be obsolete anytime soon. Hannah 24:33 Do you have any tips that folks might use if they find feathers on the ground to ID those? Ariel 24:40 Yeah, our new feather Atlas ID tool we added. So if you know what, whether it's a tail feather or wing feather, you can select that it's pattern it's color, we've now done size. And so the whole ID tool is brand new, and has all sorts of new options and Yeah, so the other thing is if you have a suggestion about something that you think should be on feather Alice, not bird species, but like a tool, you can always send that to us. We take suggestions. And the feather Atlas email is on the feather Atlas website. Yeah. Erik 25:18 That's it's the whole thing is just an awesome resource. Yes. It's, it's crazy. And like you said, with morphology, like, it's, it's not going away. Even if you're using Dart to figure it out, we're still we're still gonna use morphology. I mean, I can't afford to send in samples of feathers to Dart while I'm standing out in the field trying to look at a bird. Ariel 25:39 So it all comes back to using the right technique for the right question. And so if you have a clump of unknown feather mass, and I'm certainly not going to be able to tell what that is, from what it looks like, then we give it to geneticists. And if you have a perfectly whole burden in front of you, then you should give it to me, and I can probably tell you what spaces there's no need to do genetics when I have a whole bird in front. Because Yeah, our evidence types range from a really good shape bird, whole carcass to two birds that are dredged out of oil pits. So it's just a clump of nests, oil sludge, that we then have to clean up and and then Id the bones or feathers that come out of the oil sludge. Erik 26:31 That has got to be definitely a difficult one. There's all sorts of other stuff in there, not just bird stuff. Ariel 26:40 But yeah, our our evidence types are wildly different. Hannah 26:46 And so you mentioned that sometimes you prepare these, the sample or you know, you taxidermy. Ariel 26:53 Yes, so that actually, so it was reference, you had a certain question you would ask what kind of what prepared me for this job. And a big part of that was my master's degree. And so during my master's degree, I worked in the museum of southwestern biology, as a curatorial assistant. And so that involved sitting in a little room, and I would have a bird carcass, and I would take out all the insides, and replace them with cotton. And so preserving that specimen to be added to the collection for the next couple 100 years for scientific use. But while we're preparing that specimen, we take measurements, things like wing cord measurement, or bill measurements, measurements of their bones, or weights of their bodies. And so all of those morphological characters that I was learning how to measure and how to ID the birds in front of me, really set me up for this job, because we use so many of those same measurements in ideen, the birds that we get as evidence. Erik 28:00 So So you mentioned, you mentioned, like criminal cases, you have them in investigating and then with Barry, you mentioned trafficking, like are those like the two main sorts of things like, like illegal take and trafficking? Is that the sort of things that get brought to you guys? Yeah, Hannah 28:19 what kind of like crimes are being? What kind of crimes? Yeah, Ariel 28:23 yeah, so our special agents investigate things from poaching to smuggling to trafficking, the illegal feather trade is really big. And one of the things you you don't always think about is the live bird trade. lesser known things as the live bird trade. And I actually got to work on a case a couple of years ago, that took me down to Miami. So people are trapping and capturing North American songbirds and to put them into captivity to put them into singing competitions. And, and we had a few agents being years ago, who were doing that a couple of bad guys. And they needed a forensic ornithologist on hand to ID the birds, they were going to see us. And so I got to fly to Miami, and identify all the birds that were involved in, in that big seizure. And we actually got to turn around and release those birds back into the wild because it was during migration, which he did. Indigo buntings, painted buntings. Rose breasted grosbeaks it was really awesome. Unknown Speaker 29:30 So when, when when you release the birds that you guys had seized, did you get like where your dark sunglasses and take them off and have a catchphrase as you guys open up the cages and let that buntings fly free? Ariel 29:42 No, I wish though. Erik 29:45 I mean, I wish I could see like, like the, like the beginning of like CSI Miami, the year goes on, he takes off his glasses and stuff. Ariel 29:55 It was just such an awesome moment because almost everything that I do here deals with Denver, or partial domains. And so you get to deal with live birds and identify live birds and then get to release them back into the wild was just an amazing experience. Erik 30:10 That's That's fantastic. Catch them before they're dead. Ariel 30:14 I'll talk a little bit about the illegal feather trade. So we do see a lot of birds that are North American birds who feathers are traded and trafficked across the US. Things like bald eagles, Golden Eagles, that are often seen in the trade. But recently, we've seen a lot of international trade in birds coming out of China, and some of those birds are protected, and some of them are not. But what we are seeing a lot of bird feathers from the illegal feather trade coming out of China. Erik 30:46 That's, that's gonna complicate things so much more. So you have 400 and some species on in the bird Atlas that are represented, but there's 10,000 birds total to be represented, and who knows which ones are being traded from which countries to where, and anything could end up on your desk, of any any feather from anything around the world. So you've, you've got a one in like a 1% chance that that bird has been represented in the in the bird Atlas already. Ariel 31:16 So the feather Atlas is only a representation of North American birds. So we're not including international species. It's solely for North American. Erik 31:26 Is there another Atlas that covers outside of the rest, like Asian European African birds, Ariel 31:33 there is a similar website called featherbase that is run by Gabriel Hartman has been a big contributor to the feather base. And so they do have scans of international species. Erik 31:48 Okay, cool. So you're not you're not just completely in the dark for those then. Ariel 31:51 But yeah, is totally separate from from us Erik 31:55 okay, cool. Hannah 31:56 So when a feather from like, you know, maybe a bird from China lands on your desk, like what's, what's your first step is it to look the the, you know, try to figure out the genetic or what, like, Ariel 32:10 a whole feather, say I've got a cluster of feathers, my first step is to figure out where it came from. So we didn't wing feathers, it had tail feathers, it a body feather. So let's say it's a tail feather. And then we can take measurements, so we can see how long those feathers are, what patterns are present, because it is an extremely large feather button that immediately eliminates all the small songbirds. So it's, it's kind of like we work our way through by eliminating the things that it absolutely can't be. And once I have a just say, it's a hawk tail feather, we've gotten there large enough. There, they're too large for a lot of other things. They don't have the velvety texture of an owl. Then I'll take that feather over to the reference collection. And I'll start by looking at the Hawks and I will compare to them and see what if any of the patterns are similar. If it's a particularly tricky feather, where I don't know where to start, I will mount a feather rocks to look at it microscopically, because that can often point you in the right direction. microscopic feather identification usually gets you to order but sometimes family and for example, ducks and geese have really distinctive feather Barb's and are very different than Hawk feather barb. So even if you have a large white feather, you're not sure if it came from maybe a duck or goose or a hawk. The feather barb characters will tell you which direction to go in. And so that's why it's so important to have a really good reference collection. Because then I can go in and compare our unknown evidence item to our known specimens, whether that's our known microscopic collection or known reference collection. Erik 33:58 So I guess this is kind of jumping down a rabbit hole about preparation but so yeah, you ever referenced collection say, Mallard or something with with with the Mallard, do you have like one skin that's a fully intact skin and then you have like a whole bunch of like, this is a tail this is this is a primary the secondary here's a covert like each each individual feather all lined up in a row like of the different things that you can find a Ariel 34:25 We have a bunch of mallards because mallards are so variable, and there are domestic mallards, and some of them have very odd plumage. And so we especially weird birds, every time we get one, we want to add it to our collection, because it shows representation of an example of that species. So for mallards, right, we've got whole bodies, we have spread tails spread wings, we also have a loose feather collection that we keep here at the left. And then of course we have the microscopic collection. And if we don't have a bird that's represented in our collection, The other big tool that we use in forensics is to go to the scientific literature. And there is so much science on identifying birds, whether it is pile bird bending Guide To tell you the agent sex of things, or the Handbook of birds of the world to show the male and female plumage of a bird that definitely isn't gonna be at the lab here. We use we use resources all over the scientific field. Hannah 35:33 So how did you even happen down this career path? Like I didn't even know it was a thing, like, how are you sitting there working in this job? Ariel 35:41 I didn't know it was the thing either. I was finishing up my Master's in 2016. Thinking about Do I go and do a PhD do i do i go find, quote unquote, real job. And I was up at North American ornithological conference and AOC in 2016. And my advisor, Chris, Chris wit, he said, hey, I've got somebody you should meet. He introduced me to pepper trail. And he was telling me that they're going to be having an opening here at the lab and I should keep an eye out for for the posting. And I was like forensic ornithology, what is that? Instead of how, how is this the field and how have I never heard of it. Um, so of course, I immediately dove into everything that I could, and everything I could find was pepper. So the job posting came up, and I applied, and I was immediately smitten, this was the job I needed. And the end of that year, I got the job. And I moved up to Ashland that January. Hannah 36:41 So how did you even learn what you needed to know was, is pepper just like, you know, have all the institutional knowledge and you're just like, you know, something. Or, like, I don't even know how you learn all that. Ariel 36:56 So here at the lab, we look for people who have a really good taxanomical expertise. And then from there, they hire us. And then they train us about all the forensics, we need to know. So all the forensic training that came later, was all intensive. And, and they trusted that my my bird expertise would would just be portable. And so I had my first year here at the lab was strictly training. It was working under pepper, it was working, doing mock cases, it was learning how testifying worked, it was learning how, how to handle evidence. And so I spent an entire year just learning how to work a case. And doing practice cases before I was allowed to start casework myself. And then from there, it's it's always learning more, it's always reading new papers, how people are aiding different species. Because telling species apart can be the difference of like, two millimeters in the bill. Or this bird species wings fall below its tail, and this other bird species wing sits right above its tail. So the wing lengths are going to be different. So if I can find a paper that tells me what links those are, I can ID the bird in front of me. Hannah 38:17 So about how many cases a year do you? Do you anticipate handling? Ariel 38:21 I think on average, my cases are anywhere between like 20 and 30 cases in the last few years that I've been here. And that can range from like a single evidence item to 15 are to restart 1500 or 2000 evidence items. Oh my gosh. And so like 20 to 30 cases with that large of a range of evidence items is is what? Erik 38:49 I'm surprised with that much evidence you have time to sit and talk to us about about forensic ornithology, I would be so panicked. Like, I have 30,000 feathers, I need to identify and I need to figure out which ones are the important ones that are going to mean that mean that case goes one way or the other. Ariel 39:07 Well, so that's the great thing. It doesn't matter for me, I am just responsible for telling you what species it is. It's on our agents and our wildlife inspectors to do basically all the hard stuff. So if I tell them that it's a turkey feather, illegal turkey feather, then it's they proceed with their case naturally. And if I tell them that it's an illegal golden eagle feather, then they proceed with their case actually. Um, so in the end, it doesn't. My job is just to identify the evidence and to tell you what species it is. And then should they need me in the future I can be called to testify in court, which I have not done yet. Erik 39:45 I was gonna ask is it when you go to testify in court is it basically go up and be like, bald eagle, and then you go sit down? Ariel 39:53 No, we make really detailed notes about how we identify things, usually finding not only referenced by But scientific literature so we cite every all the characters that we use to identify every feather in every evidence item. Unknown Speaker 40:09 That could that could be extensive for something as well researched as a bald eagle, or we're I guess some of the lesser known ones like a weird and Panamax flycatcher something probably would have a lot of literature about, which is this and so you probably have three hours of testifying why that's a ash-throated and not a not a gray flycatcher or something Ariel 40:32 like we have not had to do. Hannah 40:35 Well, and you guys can probably, you know, add a lot to the scientific knowledge on some of these things that we don't have. Do you find a lot of gaps when you're doing your research. Ariel 40:45 So in the scientific literature, usually not. The most unique thing about this job is all of the information I've learned about the birds that are present in the wildlife trade that I never thought I would see. But then again, I I was a hummingbird. I spent a lot of time studying tiny birds. I studied hummingbirds, I studied chickadees, I studied Hawaiian honeycreeper hers. And then to come to this job where the most common thing we see in here the lab is bald eagles. birds that I've seen fly over, but certainly never seen up close. And to see so many bald eagle feathers, golden eagle feathers in the trade is really sad. Hannah 41:36 So if we were to find out about you know, a traffic bird or something like that, if we had a friend that's like, Hey, I just got you know, this this bird Erik 41:47 that maybe they're not a friend anymore. Hannah 41:48 Oh, yeah. What, like what would be the steps to pursuing, you know, to helping you guys do what you do in forensic ornithology? You know, get it to the wildlife officers, what would I do? Ariel 42:02 You could reach out to your local fish and wildlife officers, there are regional officers all over the country that you can reach out to, and, or you could reach out to me and I will put you in contact with one of them. And from there, they they handle all of that. And they're they're experts in investigation in everything you can imagine. All the things that I don't know. Because my expertise is what species. So yeah, I would reach out to one of our wildlife inspectors across the country, and they will help you with the next steps. Erik 42:41 Okay, so then I have one more kind of general question about forensic ornithology less less in the weeds about it, but it we read rewrite online about this. This woman Roxie libourne. I'm probably pronouncing it wrong, but I'm reborn. Yeah. That she kind of sounds like she was kind of one of the initiators of this entire field is, and we basically found her and pepper. And those are the only two people we found like, like lots of stuff written about so is this is this a field that's like new and you're gonna start growing and developing into something more? Or is this kind of like, there's really only this much need for it where we're sitting. Ariel 43:27 So yeah, Roxie was a pioneer in this field. She really was an amazing woman and somebody that I look up to, and I hope it's a growing field. So we here to the forensics lab, have helped a few different countries help start. We've helped them start to establish their own wildlife forensics lab across the country. Whether that's including genetics and pathology and chemistry, and morphology. We've had people from the Philippines, we've had people from Malaysia, countries in Africa, all come over here to help get a jumpstart on how to establish their own wildlife forensics lab. And so I hope it's a growing field. I hope we'll see more forensic ornithologists across the globe. But yeah, I really wish I had gotten a chance to meet Roxie. She's amazing. Actually, the one of her mentees, who ended up taking over the Smithsonian feather lab, Carla Dove is an amazing woman herself. And I've gotten to go to DC and learn some feather microscopy from her microscopic creditor characters. And I'm hoping that once all this COVID stuff is done, I get to go back and go learn some more from her because she's, she's just, she's an expert. And so I'm trying to absorb as much as I can, because this is my I've only been here for four years. And so I don't think I'll ever stop learning about what we can do with forensic pathology. Unknown Speaker 45:04 Yeah, that's awesome. I can't I can't let it pass up though that her last name is Dove. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I just I wanted to make sure we address that as well. But that's I I'm a big fan of when someone's last name meets up with their their job. It's, it's, it's, it's it makes me smile when I think. Hannah 45:27 Well, thank you so much Ariel for joining us and telling us more about what you do. Erik 45:33 Well, thank you so much, Ariel, for taking time out of your busy day to talk with us and have have a nice conversation about what forensic ornithology is and and how you came into it. Hannah 45:42 Yeah, it's super fascinating field that like I said, I've never heard of before, and it was surprised to come across it and to learn more about you and what you do. Unknown Speaker 45:52 And I think we're all better for knowing that someone named dove Carla Dove works in birds. It's that I said it during the interview. I'll say it again. And I'll say it, I'll say it again and a couple of weeks. Like I just love when people's names are what they do or close or related to what they do. Hannah 46:09 I wish our names were closer related to what we did. Instead of at a hotel instead of just like German gibberish Yes. Unknown Speaker 46:21 Hello, sheets. Hannah 46:22 Hannah cleaner. Erik 46:23 Hannah cleaner. Hannah 46:24 Yeah, yeah, Hannah check-in. I'm gonna change my name everyone. Erik 46:29 It's kind of chicken. Chicken. I was gonna say it almost sounds like chicken. Hannah 46:35 I guess then that's a double whammy. A double whammy? Yeah, cuz I got check-in for hotels and chicken for birds. Erik 46:41 Yeah. So you can do you can do it all. You can work either way. Hannah 46:44 I have to find a good word that's actually doubles for both. Erik 46:47 Yeah. Well think about it and get back to you. Hannah 46:51 Or if any of you have an example, that would be Erik 46:54 your last name to Hannah 46:55 Yeah, hospitality and birding, hospitality Hannah. Well, thank you all for listening. We do have a couple things coming up here. We have the Indiana Dunes festival in May. We are going down and we just booked our flight yesterday for the Rio Grande. Not for that for that. But for the great Texas Birding Classic. So we'll be in Texas at the end of April. Erik 47:22 And spent a couple days in Houston and a couple days down in the Hannah 47:25 Rio Grande Valley. maybe one or two in Beaumont. We'll see. But we are doing a big set for the burden Co Op. So we're asking any burning Co Op members to join us for it at South Padre Island on May 1. So tune into our socials and we'll try to bird and post Erik 47:46 I will try to post things on our socials and in the circle, I think Hannah 47:51 Yeah. And you want more details. Just you know where to find us. Unknown Speaker 47:55 Yeah. So thank you guys all for listening to our podcast. We hope that you enjoyed it and or learn something new. Please, please please rate review and subscribe to us on Apple podcast Stitcher, Google music. Alexa couch. Hannah 48:06 You're just gonna go into that aren't ya? Unknown Speaker 48:08 Yeah. Oh, my phone has a thing called Bixby or something. And it's it's like the Alexa or the Siri of Samsung. I guess I like that name. I don't speak Bixby or Bixi. I don't know. I disabled it as soon as it was the anyways. Anyways, you can follow us any anywhere you can review us anywhere. If you'd like to connect with us on the socials. Please follow us at hannahgoesbirding and Erikgoesbirding on Instagram. You can follow us on Twitter at wegobirding you can follow our Facebook page Hannah and Erik go birding or email us at hannahanderikgobirding@gmail.com. You can also visit our website www go birding podcast com tell us what you hated. Tell us what you liked and share it with your friends. Transcribed by https://otter.ai